Radio host and podcaster Dan Proft said that abortion is ultimately a “political war.”
“Tucker Carlson recently said that abortion is a spiritual war, not a political one, but the problem with that formulation is that we have a less and less spiritual people in America,” Proft said on a recent episode of his “Counterculture” podcast.
“So it's ultimately gonna be a political one whether you want it to be one or not because it's being settled not just in state legislatures and in ballot boxes,” said Proft. “But just in terms of the nature of the composition of the culture and what is animating people's votes and animating their behavior.”
This full episode is available on Apple Podcasts, Rumble, YouTube, and Spotify.
Proft’s comments came during his recent podcast interview with Brian Burch, the president and co-founder of CatholicVote, a national, faith-based advocacy organization headquartered in Madison, Wisc.
Proft launched “Counterculture,” which is presented by American Greatness, in September 2023.
He also is the co-host of “Chicago’s Morning Answer” weekday mornings from 5-9 a.m. on AM 560 Chicago. A former Republican candidate for Illinois Governor, Proft attended Northwestern University and received his J.D. from Loyola University-Chicago.
FULL, UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT FROM "DAN PROFT - COUNTERCULTURE" PODCAST WITH CATHOLICVOTE PRESIDENT BRIAN BURCH - OCTOBER 4, 2023:
[00:00:00] Brian Burch: What does it mean to be free? And, and once you answer that, also ask the question, does, do people want that idea of freedom? Do they want that traditional idea of freedom, which is the freedom to choose the good, the freedom, uh, to not be coerced into behaving in a way that's violative of your, of your deeply held, um, uh, beliefs.
[00:00:24] Brian Burch: And I think that's an open question. Um, are, do we, are, are we good enough to be. free and do we want to be free? You know, some of the exercise of COVID, you know, brought this to the floor. Do people really want freedom? Do they really want to be able to choose, uh, you know, whether to inject their kids with experimental vaccines?
[00:00:46] Brian Burch: Or do we just want to go with with whatever the technocratic, uh, you know, do gooders tell us is best.[00:01:00]
[00:01:00] Dan Proft: Welcome to another episode of Counterculture, the show that stands at the intersection of reason and faith in the battle against sentimentality and preservation of Western civilization. On this episode, we're going to explore a big question. Can post Christian America exist as a free society? Further, how does the answer to that big question impact how we answer smaller questions about our politics and culture, like How should pro life candidates discuss abortion in post obs America?
[00:01:30] Dan Proft: How should we address Catholic clergy who promote political views that run contrary to church teaching? How should faithful Americans provide witness to government abuses of the faithful? such as the FBI's raid of pro life activist Mark Houck's home in rural Pennsylvania. To help us consider the implications of America's increasing secularization, we're joined by Brian Birch, president of CatholicVote.
[00:01:53] Dan Proft: org, a national non profit organization whose mission is... to inspire every Catholic in America to [00:02:00] live out the truths of our faith in public life. But before we get to that big question and the associated smaller questions, we first need to establish the veracity of the premise. There is substantial survey data to buttress the claim fewer Americans are religious.
[00:02:15] Dan Proft: Belief in God is on the decline as is church attendance, to cite but two examples. But I want to start with something Chicago Archbishop Cardinal Francis George said more than a decade ago about these trends. I'm quoting him. He said, I expect to die in bed. My successor will die in prison and his successor will die a martyr in the public square.
[00:02:36] Dan Proft: His successor will pick up the shards of a ruined society. and slowly help rebuild civilization as the church has done so often in human history. So where do we stand? Let's get right to it with CatholicVote. org President Brian Birch. Brian, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me,
[00:02:54] Brian Burch: Dan. Good to be with you.
[00:02:55] Dan Proft: So, I mean, the Cardinal George quote there [00:03:00] is interpreted as a commentary on the secularization of America that was Increasing, you know, before his death more than a decade ago when he made that statement. So, um, how, how are we to understand, uh, that increasing secularization fast forwarding more than a decade from when Cardinal George uttered those words?
[00:03:21] Brian Burch: Well, I'm glad you read the end of Cardinal George's quote because often he's quoted about dying in bed and successor dying in prison and the assumption being that the church was on its way out. And that he was maybe one of the last of of a generation or of a of a historical institution that has shaped a civilization and in fact, that is not true and is not true and certainly will not be true, provided that we don't find some way to, I suppose, transcend humanity itself into some form.
[00:03:53] Brian Burch: Thank you. You know, AI driven metaverse where we exist in some, uh, you know, fascinating [00:04:00] apple, uh, Facebook, Zuckerberg, uh, world. But the bigger question you seem to be asking is, Is where are we at? Uh, I think Cardinal George properly saw that we were, we are in a, um, an age of decline, and I think anyone paying attention can recognize that, and things certainly haven't necessarily turned for the better, uh, since he died.
[00:04:25] Brian Burch: Um, I do think, though, there is a, um, a growing recognition. At least that there is something fundamentally problematic about the trajectory of our civilization, not simply that we need to, so, you know, tweak the, the, at the margins, say, the levers of tax policy or some sort of deregulation, and if we just increase at the margins, the, uh, the free market, that everyone will be fine again.
[00:04:54] Brian Burch: Uh, I think you see this conversation occurring on the right, including journals like American Greatness, [00:05:00] where... There's this, um, rethinking of some of the presumptions about what has gone wrong, uh, and a deeper dive into the ways in which politics can help solve some of these problems. And I think some of the, the healthy thinking on, on, uh, in that conversation, uh, is going deeper.
[00:05:18] Brian Burch: It's looking at... These core fundamental human questions about freedom itself and the purpose of government and the role and responsibility of institutions like the Catholic Church and helping shape and cure the problems that we're seeing. And and so as bad as it might be, I like to think that that picking up the shards that Cardinal George reference is underway.
[00:05:43] Brian Burch: Well,
[00:05:44] Dan Proft: you think it's, you think we're there. I mean, it seems to me that we're still in the, my successor will be imprisoned phase. I mean, with, I just, I mentioned at the outset, Mark Hauk, um, the FBI, uh, uh, memo targeting Catholics who attend Latin mass. It's, I mean, [00:06:00] when he says my successor will be martyred in the, uh, imprisoned and then his successor martyred, you know, I, I interpret that to mean, How Catholics or people of faith will be treated generally.
[00:06:10] Dan Proft: And so, um, whether it's somebody who's actually a man of the cloth or it's a faithful follower like a, like a hawk or are people who are attending the Latin mass and are being targeted by the Richmond office of the FBI. I mean, so I, so it's, I mean, and I understand this is not going to be sort of a neatly hit.
[00:06:28] Dan Proft: We're at the imprisonment phase and then the martyr phase and then the. So it's going to happen all simultaneously. Some people are picking up shards and some people are being targeted. But I mean, but, but what, what, how are we to understand events like those two, the, all the vandalism of Catholic churches and pro life, uh, advocacy centers, pro family advocacy groups in the wake of the Dobbs decision.
[00:06:51] Dan Proft: I mean, that is still, um. Something that number one wasn't covered very much by the D. C. Press Corps, unsurprisingly, but it [00:07:00] doesn't also speak to a certain tolerance, even indulgence of the targeting of people of faith Catholics included, but not exclusively.
[00:07:08] Brian Burch: Well, you're right. This isn't going to be some neatly fit phase.
[00:07:12] Brian Burch: We're in phase two. And as soon as that's done, we go to phase three, you know, in order to get to phase three, there has to be some shards. And the shards, as you suggest, are what we're seeing. We're seeing this. Weaponization of the government against people of faith against politically, uh, ideological opponents, frankly, whether it's parents at school board meetings, whether it's, uh, Catholics who attend the Latin mass, um, or, you know, anyone, frankly, that, uh, chooses to hold a different opinion from this administration is now.
[00:07:44] Brian Burch: Uh, come under the purview of the Department of Justice and the tools of, of that, of the most powerful government agencies, uh, are being used to, to silence and target them. Mark Hauk is, is a, you know, a perfect example of this. Uh,
[00:07:59] Dan Proft: Well, I [00:08:00] mean, sorry to interrupt, but even a decade earlier, I mean, just the continuum we've been on a decade earlier when it was the IRS.
[00:08:07] Dan Proft: Yeah. pro life and religious groups based on their beliefs in terms of whether or not they would be granted or denied tax exempt status for their organizations.
[00:08:16] Brian Burch: Absolutely. Again, this is not something some reemerging new trend that we're finally able to recognize. This is a we've been in a, uh, period of decline where left wing and institutions now often in corporate America are now in partnership with the government and are seeking to remake society.
[00:08:36] Brian Burch: And I think. This is where a group like Catholic Vote, I think, um, finds its relevance, is that we're not just a sectarian organization or interest group that has particular social views on issues and we're trying to impose those on the rest of the country. This is where the deep, fundamental, I think, unease that we, we sense, we all sense is going on needs to be [00:09:00] answered.
[00:09:00] Brian Burch: Um, not just, uh, by some, you know, political or politician or even some policy answer. They need to be answered by institutions that have been under attack, uh, for frankly, um, a century or more. Institutions like the church, or certainly the institutions that the church holds are foundational to society, such as the family.
[00:09:20] Brian Burch: Obviously, organized religion in general, the idea of a mother and father, the things that anchor our idea of freedom, because really what you're pointing to is we are losing any real sense of what it means to be free and to be free for the Catholic Church is not to simply pray, pay and obey, as we're often accused of.
[00:09:44] Brian Burch: But to behave in a way that corresponds with our fundamental nature as human persons, what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to be happy? What does it mean to be free to to to live in such a way that corresponds with our with our deepest longings? And I think [00:10:00] one of the problems we have here is we've we've seen this all out assault on the institutions that anchor anchor freedom that anchor that helped define what it means to be free.
[00:10:10] Dan Proft: Is that why you haven't seen maybe the revolt you would expect against the sort of persecutions that I was describing and you were describing, um, that you haven't seen a rallying around the church and a real public pushback. I mean, individuals in particular groups. Sure, but, but maybe not at the level that you would expect because of the disintegration of these, uh, foundational institutions like family.
[00:10:38] Dan Proft: Okay.
[00:10:40] Brian Burch: I don't know if that's true. I don't think we haven't seen this, you know, widespread uprising, but I think we are going to see that issue play itself out in next year's election. And I think that will be top of mind for some people. You just saw a Rasmussen survey. Well,
[00:10:54] Dan Proft: but, but I mean, but you have seen an increasing secularization.
[00:10:58] Dan Proft: So you've had people, instead of [00:11:00] saying, this is the time where I have to get back involved in the church, even if I was gone, this is a time where you should see increasing participation in the church. And I'm not just limiting it to the Catholic church either into houses of worship, into organizations, but inner, it should be an interfaith revolt, right?
[00:11:16] Dan Proft: To protect you. Cause I understand if, if somebody else's freedom of, of, um, religion is violated, then I could be next. And you haven't seen it. You see the increasing secular is secularization. And so I just wonder, so where's the rally? Where's the rally around the flag, if you will?
[00:11:33] Brian Burch: Yeah, well, I mean, let's be frank.
[00:11:34] Brian Burch: Part of the reason is, is that these religious institutions, including the Catholic church, haven't exactly. been beacons of, of, of moral, uh, excellence that they ought to have been. And so, whereas that ought to be the place that people are running back toward, they're hesitant to do so. And certainly they're searching for something, and there's all sorts of, uh, solutions, you know, on offer out there.
[00:11:59] Brian Burch: Uh, but, [00:12:00] uh, mainline Protestant churches certainly have, are essentially, uh, all but defunct. The Catholic Church has had its own issues, but it's coming out of that. Uh, but yeah, I think, Um, are, is this something that I'm, I'm predicting might happen or gonna happen? It may take decades. But if it's true, Dan, that this deeper longing that we have is is not satisfied by the cheap, materialist, consumerist kind of political gamesmanship that's being offered in some ways by both the Democratic Party and the establishment Republican Party, that what, where is it that society is going to land?
[00:12:36] Brian Burch: Where are people going to ultimately land in this? This idea that, well, the, the days of religion and kind of the answers that, that, that, uh, faith provided people, um, are no longer sufficient. We're, we're gonna find something else. I dismiss that, that idea. I think we're going to have to find our way back and we're going to have to find our way back to the things that have been true, uh, [00:13:00] not just, uh, you know, in recent history, but for all of the history of man and the places where our ultimate longings are answered and it's going to be up to, uh, You know, free people, um, particularly Catholics, in my opinion, uh, to, to, to present that case to make, make the offer that this is, this is something that's, that, that is an answer and an antidote to all the things that are frustrating.
[00:13:26] Dan Proft: Uh, why, uh, particularly the Catholic church, because we're the chosen people. Is that,
[00:13:34] Brian Burch: is that, no, um, the Catholic church is, is, you know, It is an institution filled with sinners, of course, you know, the old definition, the definition of a good Catholic is someone who knows they're a bad Catholic, but it's not, it's not, um, you know, triumphant, uh, triumphant to suggest that the churches have been at this for a little bit.
[00:13:54] Brian Burch: Um, it's a 2000 year old institution. It's certainly the intellectual tradition, um, [00:14:00] has helped guide, uh, not just Western civilization, but certainly the American experiment itself. And, uh, you know, the answers that it has isn't that now everyone need, we need to make the Immaculate Conception a national holiday, um, but that the answers in the insights of the church are relevant, not just for Catholics.
[00:14:19] Brian Burch: You know, the word Catholic is universal, uh, means universal. It means it's not, something isn't true because it's Catholic. It's Catholic because it's true. At least the church has laid claim to this argument that faith and reason are compatible. And so the, the, the choice on offer from the church isn't against some sectarian, you know, spaghetti monster mysticism.
[00:14:41] Brian Burch: It's if something is is true about humanity and is true about the way in which the world is reality itself, the way that God made it, uh, then it's, it's gonna win out at the end of the day, uh, despite what the particular, you know, sending, uh, [00:15:00] you know, maneuvers of the people that play that are play actors in the drama.
[00:15:05] Dan Proft: So I mean, so Catholic vote dot org, your organization does a lot of messaging on, uh, on, on social events as well as public policy related matters. Uh, you helped to lead the boycott against the Dodgers when they Indulge the sisters of perpetual indulgence and made a mockery of, well, mostly themselves, but also attempted to make a mockery of the Catholic church.
[00:15:29] Dan Proft: And so I, this corruption, intellectual corruption within Christian and Catholic, uh, churches that you're talking about that's occurred seems to me that, that the consistent. Thread is sentimentality, which this show has been sort of set up to identify and combat and and and how do you message to congregants, regardless of their particular denomination, who think that it's a good and we're seeing this all over the place.
[00:15:58] Dan Proft: I think that's a good idea to [00:16:00] have, you know, drag queen story hour on the altar. Uh, good idea to have, uh, cultural institutions like a professional sports franchise honor the sisters of perpetual indulgence because yeah, maybe they're a little Uh, boisterous and garish, but they do such good work in the community, right?
[00:16:19] Dan Proft: I mean, you, you've heard these arguments. How do you message against that? Those are sentimental arguments. Like I want to be a tolerant person. I want to be an inclusive person. And even if I find this a bit excessive or these people a bit, um, challenged that, you know, we still don't want to ostracize ostracizing and ridiculing.
[00:16:41] Dan Proft: Even, you know, the, the irony is lost on them.
[00:16:44] Brian Burch: Well, it's a complicated question because as you know, the church is, is, is, uh, uh, forget who wrote is here comes everybody. It's made up of a lot of different kinds of Catholics for, uh, we have Joe Biden and Clarence Thomas and Nancy Pelosi and Kellyanne Conway and [00:17:00] Steve Bannon, all who claim to be Catholic, even Dan Proctor.
[00:17:02] Brian Burch: Um, so it's a ball. Yes, absolutely. How to fit that one on the spectrum. But, uh, So when you talk about talking or messaging to Catholics, you know, it's a it's a complicated affair. I think though Um, one of the pieces that I think is important is, let's define what it, what it means to be Catholic, and at least as a baseline qualifier, um, often in our work, we say, at least let's take someone who still goes to church at least a couple times a year, Christmas or Easter, or at least maybe, if we're lucky, uh, every Sunday as we're supposed to.
[00:17:38] Brian Burch: Um, so, Uh, for us, that is the most meaningful part of the, the Catholics that we're trying to motivate. These are people who, which, for which we would argue that their conscience is still active. They're, they feel this desire to, to live some spiritual life. They, they go to church. They, um, you know, ideally [00:18:00] pray in some way.
[00:18:00] Brian Burch: And, and that's not the majority of Catholics, frankly, anymore. Unfortunately, the largest majority of Catholics are people who are fallen away or no longer practicing. But in terms of the Catholics that can make a difference, that are worth talking to and helping build coalitions with to try to go and do things, I think, um, the old way was to talk to them kind of from a authoritarian perspective.
[00:18:24] Brian Burch: This is what the church teaches, this is church dogma, um, you know, it's time to be obedient. I don't think that's sufficient anymore. I think people are looking for what I think the Church has offered in the past, um, and, and, it's been neglected in part because of kind of a, um, of a sense that the Catholics are just kind of practiced by default because of the cultural kind of structures in which Catholicism grew up in America.
[00:18:50] Brian Burch: But people are looking for Um, more stimulating and more, um, broader explanation of [00:19:00] why it is that these things matter. Why does it matter, for example, that a bunch of sexual deviants dressing up as nuns, Um, shouldn't be celebrated on the field of a major league baseball team. Um, you know, you're right. We did mount that campaign.
[00:19:14] Brian Burch: We, we, we spent a million dollars of, of advertising money. It actually led by the way. And I haven't really talked about this publicly cause I, I promised them that I, we would keep things confidential. It led to a private meeting with the Dodgers, uh, executives. Um, I sat down in, in the, uh. Walter O'Malley's office, uh, the former, uh, God rest him, Catholic owner of the Dodgers, overlooking the field, and we spent an hour and a half arguing and talking through this and, and without betraying what I did promise, I will say that, uh, I can assure your listeners that, uh, a spectacle like that is not going to happen again, um, and that they
[00:19:51] Dan Proft: were, Well, what was your, what was your main argument?
[00:19:54] Dan Proft: What would Vin Scully say? Yeah,
[00:19:57] Brian Burch: Vin Scully or, uh, Tommy Lasorda [00:20:00] or, Yeah, right. You know. Uh, the train of Catholics, Ben Scolia, again, uh, you know, uh, now deceased, but a long time, uh, very devout Catholic, who is an icon of the Dodgers organization. You know, the argument we use, and it kind of relates to your last question, was not one of, uh, Catholic dogma and authority.
[00:20:18] Brian Burch: It was one of, we adopted a lot of the... The framing of the left is, um, corporations ought to be sources of, uh, inclusivity and, and unity. And this action on their part was a source of division, is the way we, we framed it. And in fact, I joked with him. I said, you know, your Dodger blue, uh, is increasingly being perceived as, as Democrat hard left blue.
[00:20:44] Brian Burch: And of all institutions, a baseball team that, you know, that we've been, you know, at least, uh, call America's pastime ought to be a place where politics is set aside and we can go to a ball game and we can cheer. Sitting Democrat, Republican, it doesn't matter. And [00:21:00] you've introduced into this, this whole kind of political division that's ripping apart the country.
[00:21:04] Brian Burch: And why would you want to contribute to that? That you as a corporation should be contributing to bringing America together. And they agreed a hundred percent. Uh, Magic Johnson's representative was in the meeting. The vice president of the Dodgers was in the meeting. Um, and I was actually happy and grateful that they, uh, would sit there, listen, talk with us.
[00:21:24] Brian Burch: They obviously are, recognize the, the threat to their, um, you know, their brand and to baseball, and that they, they wanted to, uh, tamp things down. And, and certainly we made some demands, some of which they wouldn't agree to. I think that effort is an example of Catholic people and it wasn't just Catholic people was Christian people across the country saying, wait a minute, enough is enough.
[00:21:48] Brian Burch: Um, I know we're getting pushed around in all sorts of areas and FBI is raiding our homes, but at some point we say, no, we're not going to tolerate this anymore. Did we stop them? [00:22:00] Well, what did they do an hour before the game with nobody in the stadium? They trotted them out for, you know, 10 minutes and then hushed them away to make sure that it was.
[00:22:09] Brian Burch: And then there's been other appearances of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence that have been cancelled as a result of of that effort. So, um, small victory. Yes. Is it going to fundamentally change? No, but it does awaken in people. What I think is, uh, the threat here posed by this aggressive, progressive left that sees religion as the enemy of freedom.
[00:22:31] Brian Burch: It sees religious people as this backwards, uh, you know, to, to, to, to. You know, impediments to the idea of America that they're trying to bring about, but
[00:22:41] Dan Proft: just sticking on that example for a minute. The sisters of perpetual indulgence in the Dodgers. The response from Catholic clergy was interesting. Some were very outspoken, like Bishop Robert Barron.
[00:22:55] Dan Proft: Some were less. So some really middle the issue. [00:23:00] What's going on there in the church? Is it sort of this still this this hangover of feeling like because of the sex abuse scandal? The church doesn't have the moral authority to weigh in on these issues anymore. Is it clergy who put politics before?
[00:23:15] Dan Proft: Catechism is it both what what's what's going on with the people that that know better? Who are men of the cloth who won't say what they know?
[00:23:26] Brian Burch: Well, it's a good question. I think part of it is just pure cowardice to stick your neck out there and to engage on an issue like this. They don't want to be perceived as hostile to gay people or to be, to pick a fight with the LGBT lobby, which of course is on a collision course with the church.
[00:23:42] Brian Burch: And we're going to see this in this upcoming synod on synodality. Sorry, non Catholic listeners, but this, this month long, uh, listening session, uh, that's gonna occur starting in a week in the Vatican. Um, I think at root, Dan, though, and, you know, it's uncomfortable to [00:24:00] say, but there is a, a pretty aggressive pro LGBT homosexual, uh, movement inside the church that's seeking to normalize this behavior and to make arguments that are to reframe.
[00:24:13] Brian Burch: Catholic moral theology that, that, um, actually purports to, uh, you know, uh, affirm, uh, uh, homosexual, uh, behavior. And this, of course, is contrary to church teaching, but for, for many church leaders, this is kind of the new third rail, so to speak. Um, and they are very apprehensive in part, of course, even because some of the things the Pope has said that, that, that, uh, have created a lot of confusion.
[00:24:39] Dan Proft: Um, there's also confusion on another issue that is cultural and political, and of course, uh, has found renewed prominence because of the Dobbs decision and the perception that that decision advances in advance of the 2022 midterms helped to minimize the losses of Democrats and so and [00:25:00] then it ultimately redounds to the sort of, um, for me, at least exhausting conversation about, um, White leftist, suburban women, but, but, but, but as you think about that, I mean, we've, we've talked about it offline and I know you've talked about this routinely too, is, you know, how do you message to, uh, women and even pro choice men about the Dobbs decision?
[00:25:24] Dan Proft: And you know, so given decision.
[00:25:30] Dan Proft: Where, where do you think is the most sort of sensible approach to make the way that you made a sensible, not dogmatic approach to, uh, Martin O'Malley to, uh, to Dodgers ownership about, uh, the sisters
[00:25:43] Brian Burch: sisters? Yeah, well, this is where I probably, um, part ways a little bit with some of the conversation occurring in the pro life movement, you know, since Dobbs was essentially took off the table.
[00:25:54] Brian Burch: Kind of the Roe v. Wade yes or no binary choice question that informed a [00:26:00] lot of political things, which in many ways protected politicians from having to go, um, answer kind of the harder questions, which is why do we have abortion to begin with? Why? Why is the left succeeding now and telling women that if without abortion, their lives will be, um, you know, a terrible mess and that men will, will, uh, uh, manipulate and exploit them if they don't have this fundamental reproductive rights, so to speak.
[00:26:28] Brian Burch: And I think this is where, uh, we have to recognize as pro life people that abortion is a symptom of a much larger challenge we have in society. And I think we do have to take seriously. The idea that women feel, which is If they don't have the right to abortion, how are they going to be protected and cared for and their deeper longings and this, uh, this, the changes that they have in this attachment to this child that's growing within them, who is going to take care of them?
[00:26:59] Brian Burch: Um, [00:27:00] and I think the pro life movement has had some answers there in terms of pregnancy resource centers and adoption and such, but those are also in many ways downstream of the problem. Um, women, um, are regularly, of course, um, Um, you know, uh, treated as, as objects, whether it be pornography, whether it be the broader way in which, uh, despite all of the, you know, Me Too movement and everything else, uh, women have become still, uh, objects of, of, of, you know, um, sexual playthings of men, and in so many ways, the abortion is, is man's best friend.
[00:27:39] Brian Burch: Um, you know, if I was to rewind the tape a little bit on some of these states that have passed a lot of these pro life restrictions, I would have combined it with language that imposed massive burdens on men who impregnate the women and then say, go take care of your problem. Um, and abortion is occurring in the context of this larger challenge we have about the [00:28:00] relations between men and women and how women who are Um, uh, have this unbelievable gift of of nurturing the next generation inside their own bodies, who's going to take care of them and who's going to affirm them and who's going to protect them.
[00:28:15] Brian Burch: And if you take the average, you know, young woman who's single, who's working, who's out there and who's, you know, finds a, uh, a good, uh, uh, conversationalist who's attractive inside of a bar and things progress and they end up behaving in the way that they're supposed to. as Catholics, we wouldn't approve of.
[00:28:33] Brian Burch: Um, what's our answer? You go take care of your problem. We culturally, politically and policy wise, don't have answers for women. And I think until we as a pro life movement fundamentally address this deep vulnerability that women have because of the culture in which Um, we are unwilling to, uh, address, uh, then it's gonna be hard, um, to address ultimately the, the fundamental injustice [00:29:00] of abortion question that this So,
[00:29:03] Dan Proft: so how so?
[00:29:04] Dan Proft: I mean, so I mean, and, and I'm not necessarily arguing with a point, but I mean, should we be more punitive when it comes to men? Should we, I mean, is it, is it, you know, I mean, how, how do you, how do you incentivize men to behave? Responsibly, uh, impose financial burdens and criminal penalties, uh, more substantial criminal penalties if you don't abide your, your, uh, uh, financial obligations.
[00:29:29] Dan Proft: Uh, but I mean, as, and then with that, and would that be satisfactory for women? I mean, they don't just want somebody writing checks and they want, they want a family, right? So, I mean, it's, you know, so how, how do you, how do you bridge the divide you're describing?
[00:29:43] Brian Burch: I mean, of course this is, you know, uh, a longer conversation that I don't claim all the expertise on, but it seems to me that we have to imitate what the left has done in terms of, of advancing the sexual revolution.
[00:29:56] Brian Burch: And we're gonna have to essentially deconstruct it and [00:30:00] deconstruct it by number of D things, different things, certainly imposing more punitive. on men, uh, who right now can get off and have no responsibility whatsoever. But we also have to build a cultural construct in which women don't, um, find that the, the, the, that the answer, um, is.
[00:30:20] Brian Burch: getting rid of my child. Um, and what that means is a culture that affirms and esteems and and and celebrates motherhood. Um, you know, this is part of the underlying premise of the abortion movement that the worst possible thing that could ever happen to a woman. Worst thing. Is that she has a child, that she becomes a mother, that she'd be burdened with this.
[00:30:42] Brian Burch: And, and, and we have to, in many ways, de disenchant, just like they have done with us disenchant, this idea of this liberated woman, um, who can, uh, armed with these tools, can, can liberate themselves from men and from all [00:31:00] attachments to men. Men when again, all the, the studies and science and certainly history and insights of.
[00:31:06] Brian Burch: The Catholic Church, hate to bring that up again, say, this is not what women want. What women don't want a, um, you know, a disenchanted, uh, fully liberated existence. Yeah. Some crazy, you know, women out in Portland may want that, but most women want, um, men who will respect them, who will ideally protect and take care of them and respect their bodies.
[00:31:30] Brian Burch: And, and, um, ideally have a child in the construct of, of a deep lifelong relationship with a man and have a family. And I think our side needs to, um, work at, whether it's through academia, through media campaigns or through, uh, I think media campaigns is a big piece of this, of, of deconstructing kind of the aura of this, of this liberated idea where, that abortion fits in, that somehow this is some deeply satisfying answer to women's, uh, deepest longings, when in [00:32:00] fact, it's just simply not true.
[00:32:02] Dan Proft: Yeah, it's well, you know, Tucker Carlson recently said that, um, abortion is a spiritual war, not a political one. But the problem with that formulation is that we have a, uh, less and less spiritual people in America. So it's ultimately going to be a political one, whether you want it to be one or not, because it's being settled, not just in state legislatures and in ballot boxes, but just in terms of the nature of the composition of the culture and what is animating people's Uh, votes and animating their behavior.
[00:32:34] Dan Proft: Fewer and fewer for fewer and fewer. It's, um, You know, uh, uh, respect for faith tradition.
[00:32:41] Brian Burch: Yeah. So if you're right, and I think it's partly true that it is going to be a political one. Well, I think we need to adopt some of the, the, um, you know, premises that the other side is using and turn them on their face.
[00:32:54] Brian Burch: There is no better tool for the patriarchy, by the way, than abortion, the [00:33:00] patriarchy, this idea that. That men are in control of civilization and control women because of their strength and all the various, you know, identity politics. Abortion is one of the, the single most important tools to maintain the patriarchy and you and I being men, if we, you know, uh, jettisoned all our morals, uh, it would be a nice tool to have to live recklessly and you know, as we wish.
[00:33:24] Brian Burch: Um, the other piece of it being is that You know, you have, um, this toxic masculinity or, or the identity politics, all of these things are essentially the pro life cases bolstered, I think, by addressing situating abortion in the context of these things that are being taught in universities and foisted through the media to say, well, actually, if we do want to fix the problem of toxic masculinity and the patriarchy and men's dominance over women, why are we giving them you?
[00:33:56] Brian Burch: This essentially get out of jail card. Um, and [00:34:00] allowing men to take advantage of women in the way that we are. So take their premises and turn them in, in, in a way that, that I think, um, points to the, the real, the truth behind this.
[00:34:10] Dan Proft: Well, one of the other ways too, it seems to me is sort of women's or women are victim of the patriarchy, right?
[00:34:15] Dan Proft: They're victims. They're a marginalized class. But in point of fact, as you know, this is, by the way, you know, it's not like two conservative white guys talking about what's good for women. I'm, I'm channeling the arguments of the Phyllis Schlafly's and conservative pro life women for generations who've made these arguments.
[00:34:32] Dan Proft: They have educated me. So, uh, the idea that abortion hurts women. And just talking about how abortion and organizations like Planned Parenthood victimize women, provide bad incentives that produce bad outcomes. And, uh, and, and women don't want to be shamed and they don't want to be embarrassed and they don't want to be castigated.
[00:34:52] Dan Proft: And I understand that nobody's looking to imprison, uh, or, or be morally indignant about a woman who made a decision [00:35:00] with which I would disagree. But, but the idea that it hurts women, uh, physiologically, mentally, you know, is that a way to turn that way? Who's really victimizing women argument on its head?
[00:35:15] Brian Burch: I think so. Um, and there's some recent, um, data on that. So just came out from the Charlotte Lowe's here Institute, things that we've cited regularly, the media regularly ignores, uh, according to their data, I believe it was 60 to 70 percent of all abortions are either involuntary coerced. or unwanted. And what that means is it doesn't mean that a woman goes in and has an abortion.
[00:35:37] Brian Burch: Um, and that in every all these circumstances that they somehow, um, you know, we're forced to have it. It means if they were given the chance Just decide differently or given options or someone, by the way, and there's real data on this. Someone said, um, you don't need to do this. Uh, there is another option that they would prefer to have [00:36:00] kept their child.
[00:36:00] Brian Burch: So this idea that we have this huge mountain to climb because all these women are just radical pro abortion. I think is actually wrong. I think the vast majority of abortions occurring. Um, and women deeply regret this. And how could you not, uh, to undergo a procedure that destroys this, the most unbelievable thing that humanity is capable of, which is growing and nurturing another human life inside of your own body.
[00:36:25] Brian Burch: Um, and so you're right. It's not just, you know, two white Catholic guys, you know, addressing the problem that women are having. It's women themselves tell us Time and time again, uh, this is this answer is not sufficient if this is all we got and this is all society is going to give us, we're going to cling to it, but you got to come up with something better.
[00:36:46] Brian Burch: And I think it's up to, you know, people of faith and pro life people and people that want to build a decent society that, uh, to, you know, come up with solutions and ways in which we, we, the answer [00:37:00] isn't simply, uh, to kill Children so that we can live as we please. Thank you.
[00:37:04] Dan Proft: Let me ask you another question about the messaging on this, and this is, you know, this suggestion will be met with fierce opposition in a lot of pro life quarters, I know, but I mean, it's just a conversation in terms of strategy and tactics on messaging, because we understand this is partly a political world.
[00:37:22] Dan Proft: Uh, challenge that's presenting itself, and that is what if we turned another premise of the radical left that drives so much of this, the, you know, Planned Parenthood acolytes, what if we turn another one of their premises on its head, safe, legal and rare. Those were the signs for 50 years at the pro abortion rallies and so on and so forth.
[00:37:43] Dan Proft: What if we really challenged that by saying, well, right, because now this is a matter for the states at the federal level, um, will defer to the states because that was sort of the goal of the pro life movement. I mean, not everyone, but generally was overturned the [00:38:00] horrific Supreme Court decision and let the states decide.
[00:38:02] Dan Proft: That's what we see happening right now. But the position of individual candidates for Congress, for governor, for Senate, even at the presidential level is safe, legal, and rare. That's sort of the default position. That's where everybody agrees. The overwhelming majority oppose late term abortions. They support parental notification, if not consent.
[00:38:23] Dan Proft: Um, so safe, legal and rare. That's our, our midpoint position for now.
[00:38:31] Brian Burch: Yeah. Well, this is, uh, this is always fun because of course, where did that phrase come from? Where, who championed that Bill Clinton? Uh, this is the fun. If we could just go back to the Bill Clinton era of American politics, who, you know, safe, legal and rare and abortion, he signed the defensive marriage act.
[00:38:46] Brian Burch: He declared the era of big government over, he was against illegal immigration. But to the question, I think the challenge that a lot of people have is They are very principled, and so the idea, for example, as you lay out, that we could agree on [00:39:00] some kind of common ground of safety, legal and rare, well, we're going to have a hard time.
[00:39:04] Brian Burch: A lot of people are going to say, well, I can't accept that abortion in principle should be legal because I believe this is this monstrous injustice that takes the life of a living human person. So how could I ever accept in principle? And this is where I think, you know, Scripture gives us some guidance.
[00:39:20] Brian Burch: We have to be wise as serpent and innocent as doves. The wisest serpent part would mean we do have to wrestle with the political realities, which is, you know, some national ban on abortion at conception is probably not going to happen anytime soon. Certainly not at the federal level. Um, you may have some particular states where, where some deep restrictions are widely, uh, supported and they can adopt some of that.
[00:39:44] Brian Burch: But I do think it's important for the pro life movement, particularly as we Um, are going to be engaged in a presidential fight. And Trump seems to be dancing around this to find a way to satisfy a majority of the country and to get into use the new. [00:40:00] Post row or Dobbs framework, uh, to actually reduce the number of abortions, start to make them, uh, rare, um, why they are still legal in a lot of places.
[00:40:11] Brian Burch: Uh, and certainly on the safe part, uh, do a lot of things that promote. The safety of women protections for women, uh, or avenues and options where if it's true, as the data suggests that women actually in the end, most of them don't really want to have an abortion that the exceptions of rape and incest are tiny and at the margins of the vast majority of women are in pregnant who have an abortion are find themselves in a difficult circumstance, and they're looking for help that We have a responsibility to that, that to actually drive the number of abortions down and to make them more of a cultural anomaly, uh, ought to be one of the things we should be working, um, creatively, um, as we, you know, uh, as a movement.
[00:40:59] Dan Proft: Well, right. And with, [00:41:00] with pro lifers who are reticent to compromise, I mean, I certainly respect the philosophical position because I share it, but let's also be honest with ourselves. I mean, we compromised to support Trump. Trump's not exactly, uh, you know, uh, character necessarily emulate. Yeah, right. I mean, you don't confuse him with, uh, with Phyllis Schlafly, for example, but, um, yeah.
[00:41:22] Dan Proft: So you made a compromise there, and we understand how important justices were, because that's how Dobbs was overturned, and we understand, I mean, Roe was overturned in the Dobbs case, and we understand where the left would go if they controlled the White House for another term or more, and were able to.
[00:41:40] Dan Proft: Replace aging justices who are, uh, have a better handle on the original intent of the constitution and where rights exist and where they don't. So, I mean, you're going to make compromises. Now it's just a question of what compromise are you willing to make?
[00:41:54] Brian Burch: Yeah, the trouble is the compromise conversation often occurs at the federal level [00:42:00] where there's no meaningful or, um, you know, opportunity to pass some sort of, Um, you know, comprehensive restriction on abortion.
[00:42:10] Brian Burch: And so it's, uh, it's used as a, you can
[00:42:14] Dan Proft: do over the top messaging along the lines that we're, that we're theorizing and then how things, uh, play themselves out in Missouri versus how things play themselves out in Wisconsin are two different things. And that's for the locals to figure.
[00:42:30] Brian Burch: Yeah. This is why even Trump's walk back a little bit and I, I criticized him for it because I think he needs to be.
[00:42:36] Brian Burch: delivering the overarching message. But practically speaking, um, what reasonably can we expect? I think there is gonna have to be compromised. The next Republican president, hopefully that's a pro life one. Um, they need to certainly insist on some basics like no more taxpayer funding of Planned Parenthood.
[00:42:54] Brian Burch: Um, I think there should be some, uh, heavy emphasis on additional funding for social [00:43:00] services, for, for pro life pregnancy centers, for healthcare for women that's not, um, have Planned Parenthood, uh, behind it. Uh, and those are the kinds of things that actually. Will lead to, uh, less abortions in this country, uh, than some sort of, you know, political football that we debate over whether it's 15 week or eight week or heartbeat, et cetera, that often too many people find themselves debating.
[00:43:24] Dan Proft: What about the schools? What about K through 12 education and the advance of school choice? We saw a recent victory in North Carolina against the wishes of the Democrat governor there. We've seen legislators actually flipping parties in both state legislators in both North Carolina and Georgia, uh, mainly over the issue of school choice.
[00:43:43] Dan Proft: They were proponents of school choice. The party, meaning the teachers union subsidiary that is their party, wouldn't let them support school choice. So they said, I'm, I'm out. And I've joined the Republican ranks. How important is the advance of school choice in a restoration of [00:44:00] spirituality? In a advance of the reconstitution of the family, and then of course these policy outcomes we've just been discussing.
[00:44:10] Brian Burch: I mean, you can make the argument that there is no bigger issue than this. Um, all of the cultural problems and, uh, issues we've talked about even on the show originate somewhere. And they originate because... Uh, there are either substitutes for the family in the form of government agencies or public school systems that, uh, are operated as daycare centers and, you know, kitchen tables, et cetera, for families.
[00:44:37] Brian Burch: Um, but more importantly, the idea of an education isn't just about learning some math facts. It's also about learning. fundamental truths about what it means to be human and, and, and including religion and the church, the Catholic church of all institutions with the largest number of private schools in the country, this ought to be their number one issue.
[00:44:56] Brian Burch: And obviously it's not just good policy, it's good [00:45:00] politics as well. Uh, overwhelming, um, number of minorities, uh, where school choice has been put into place, recognize this has been, you know, a life changing. Um, uh, opportunity for their families, and I think it's been at this for a long time as you have.
[00:45:19] Brian Burch: I'm actually extremely encouraged by what we're seeing. We're seeing state by state by state, not just passing some kind of voucher law at the margins for people, you know, at 300 percent below the poverty level, but full essays, education savings accounts. And I think a lot of people forget what that means.
[00:45:35] Brian Burch: I have family in Arizona, and They get 7, 500 per kid. They go into the state portal. There's their private school. There's their ballet lessons. There's their Apple computer. Uh, they just allot the money, uh, transfer the money. They're allotted per kid, including homeschoolers, by the way. Uh, and those expenses are paid for.
[00:45:54] Brian Burch: And so what does that mean? It means if you desire to raise your child in a. Uh, [00:46:00] faith environment to educate them freely, uh, apart from all the dictates of this kind of woke, uh, uh, education, industrial complex, uh, then you can do so and you can nurture your kids and, and, and, and. Gird them for the world that they're going to enter where we don't have to kind of play defense the entire time where we're going to You know public school meetings getting arrested because we're asking to see the curriculum
[00:46:28] Dan Proft: a lot of people myself included are quick to point out well School choice is great.
[00:46:33] Dan Proft: But that doesn't mean that every private school or Catholic school denominational school Is in subject to the same pressures as the government school systems and many of the worst ideas and the worst curriculums and the worst abuses are coming from very high end private schools that drive in some respects what happens in the government schools.
[00:46:56] Dan Proft: We've seen this at schools like the Brearley School in [00:47:00] New York. I mean, these, these, these, you know, schools and boarding schools that are 000 a year. So just being private or just being done national is at the end of the discussion is the beginning, but it seems to me the advantage of dealing with the problem of new of, of Marxist influence in the school, it's easier in the private schools because you have, uh, a population that is more inclined to being religious.
[00:47:29] Dan Proft: And so you have, to me, it seems like at least more resources, more potential resources, parents that are willing to stand up because they're making this choice. They're paying twice. They, they are sending their kids to the school for particular reason. Those that are on scholarship are paying twice, but regardless, they're making the decision.
[00:47:46] Dan Proft: Uh, to send their kids for specific specific reason. It usually has at least something to do with character formation, and at least you have a population you can motivate against a few teachers or a few school board [00:48:00] members or even a rogue principal. at a Catholic school. Is that, is that your way of of addressing, uh, the, what, what happens when a Catholic school is taken over by the left?
[00:48:12] Brian Burch: Well, there's no doubt, um, especially the older, more, you know, elite Catholic institutions, we could name them, um, have, have totally sold themselves and in many ways aren't. You know, anything that resembles what what I would call an authentic Catholic education. But what we're really talking about here with school choices is at the elementary and high school level.
[00:48:34] Brian Burch: And the significant thing is not just whether these institutions are filled with families who want to live a particular way. And they can. leverage, uh, you know, that those numbers to shape that school, but they could go start another school. And I think and I use the example of Arizona. I'll tell you what's happening.
[00:48:51] Brian Burch: There's new schools popping up all over. Um, we've lived, uh, you know, through an area where to start a new school. A lot of heroic families have done [00:49:00] this. We've seen some schools pop up. Um, but they had to find the money, find the families willing to pay the tuition. And it was It was a very difficult exercise.
[00:49:09] Brian Burch: You take the funding question off the table. It's really a debate over where, what kinds of schools are going to succeed. And in the Catholic world, for example, we have these things called the Chesterton academies. I think there's 15 or 17 new Chesterton academies starting in the next year. That's just one year.
[00:49:27] Brian Burch: These are new schools. In part because people are fleeing the public schools coming out of COVID, et cetera. They're also, by the way, frustrated with a lot of the diocesan and traditional Catholic institutions that they believe have lost their, um, you know, uh, uh, their, their Catholicity and their, they, they, they've sold themselves to the, the, the Marxist dribble as well.
[00:49:49] Brian Burch: So I think it's competition. I think it's the ability of families to pick and choose what's best for their kids. And I think their market will meet that when you take the funding question off the table.
[00:49:59] Dan Proft: So let's, [00:50:00] uh, go back to where we started, which is this idea of Whether or not America can be a free society if it's a strictly secular society, this is not to say, you know, some sort of theocracy, meaning a religious people, the old the John Adams quote, this, you know, a free and moral people.
[00:50:18] Dan Proft: That's what this country was founded to be. And it will only remain a free if we have a moral people. Uh, and so, so we're, you know, after all this discussion about where things stand and the spiritual battles that are playing out in the political arena. Uh, Uh, what's your answer to that question? Can America be free if she is no longer Christian?
[00:50:41] Brian Burch: Well, I think you have to answer that by asking a qualifier, which is what does it mean to be free? And, and once you answer that, also ask the question, does, do people want that idea of freedom? Do they want that traditional idea of freedom, which is the, the freedom to [00:51:00] choose the good? The freedom, uh, to not be coerced into behaving in a way that's violative of your, of your deeply held, um, of, of beliefs.
[00:51:10] Brian Burch: And I think that's an open question. Um, are, do we, are, are we good enough to be free and do we want to be free? You know, some of the exercise of covid, you know, brought this to the floor to do people really want freedom. Do they really want to be able to choose, uh, you know, whether to inject their kids with experimental vaccines or do we just want to, uh, go with with whatever the technocratic, uh, Uh, you know, do gooders tell us his best.
[00:51:41] Brian Burch: And I think that's an open question, but I think it's going to be answered in some ways by the proxy question we began with as well, which is, um, these institutions like church and family, um, uh, the anchor are freedom that guide what it means to be free. Are they robust enough to [00:52:00] inculcate? What, um, um, this proper understanding of freedom so that people don't just desire, desire to be free in the abstract, uh, freedom, uh, but freedom for what?
[00:52:11] Brian Burch: And I think, um, to the extent those institutions that anchor us and to guide us and nurture the proper understanding of freedom are revitalized, um, then, then we will, um, recover this idea of freedom that I think is the, the. Foundational idea of the United States. Uh, if we don't, then I think that any notion that we're free, um, or that America is, is, um, possible, we'll be under some perverted, you know, uh, uh, I would say, um, you know, facade we call freedom, but it's certainly, um, empty.
[00:52:51] Brian Burch: Live at the difference
[00:52:52] Dan Proft: between libertinism and liberty, right? You're just, uh, it's just your, I'm free to, um, sort of indulge myself. I'm [00:53:00] man without men without chess kind of freedom. Um, uh, yeah. I mean that you say. Right. Rather than you say, I'm free to choose the good, but that from deeply held beliefs.
[00:53:10] Dan Proft: But of course that presupposes deeply held beliefs and that's, so it becomes a bit, a bit of a chicken and egg argument. Um, so what are the institutions that confer a deeply held beliefs that extend the traditions that require, um, Responsible behavior and restraint on institutions like government,
[00:53:31] Brian Burch: right?
[00:53:31] Brian Burch: It's this paradoxical idea that we desire to be free, but we want to be free in a way that that actually restrains, meaning we, there's nothing, um, comforting about living in a world where anything goes, uh, where there is no limits to anything. I know this is kind of debate occurring on the right. We do have to recover and have some shared consensus on that, on what it needs to be free and a kind of, kind of, um, uh, bull of, uh, guardrails, [00:54:00] uh, in which we want freedom, uh, to exist and freedom to prosper.
[00:54:04] Brian Burch: And that used to be provided by. You know, kind of this Christian substrate, uh, that we inherited, uh, certainly affirmed in people's religious practices and churches and this kind of civil society, the Tocqueville idea that, you know, there's this, you know, broad swath of society that exists between the individual and the state and that those, that, that, that layer of society is, is what gives us meaning and guides and restraints.
[00:54:31] Brian Burch: And this, you know, um, This is an older kind of idea of freedom, but it's it's the it's the universal, um, you know, lasting idea of freedom that I think you're pointing to. And and I don't think America survives unless we recover that, um, can't
[00:54:48] Dan Proft: be and it seems to me. I mean, you just have to sort of call the question and just to spur the kind of thinking that perhaps isn't going on as it should be, which is it's really simple.
[00:54:59] Dan Proft: Do you believe in [00:55:00] God or do you believe your God? I mean, that really is a binary, and it takes you on two completely different paths that never shall meet. Uh, so to me, like that fundamental question, boy, if you had those discussions going on at the K through 12 level in government schools or private ones, that'd be interesting to see how quickly people may.
[00:55:20] Dan Proft: Recognize the error of the idea that, um, anything goes is real freedom, which is to say that you can't choose the good because everything is equally good and equally bad, right? You're your own God. So whatever you do is good because it came from my head and whatever somebody else does that I disagree with is bad because it didn't come from my head.
[00:55:40] Dan Proft: I mean, that that's it seems to me. It's sort of like, uh, the fundamental riddle for people to address.
[00:55:47] Brian Burch: I mean, it's funny because you point to that, and one of my favorite lines is, you know, if you really want to understand the Declaration of Independence, it's very simple. It's two things. Number one, there is a God, and number two, you're not him.
[00:55:58] Brian Burch: Right. [00:56:00] And if you get those two things right, a lot of things tend to flow rather nicely from
[00:56:04] Dan Proft: that. Elegant in its simplicity. The founders, uh, Brian Birch, president of Catholic vote, catholic vote. org. Brian, thanks so much for joining us and enlightening conversation as always. And, uh, we appreciate your time continued success with catholic vote.
[00:56:18] Dan Proft: org.
[00:56:20] Brian Burch: Thanks, Dan. Happy shard picking up.
[00:56:31] Dan Proft: Yes. Thank you haven't already, it really helps us.
Alerts Sign-up